blp shabash 430x45
Inspiring and Supporting Photographers of Australian Birds

Welcome, Guest
Username: Password: Remember me
When posting a new topic, please ensure that you select the correct category for your post in the top drop-down box of the edit window. The default entry is the first category shown on the All Categories page; this is unlikely to be the category that you want. The Category drop-down box will be present if you click the New Topic tab in the Forum menu; if you are viewing a particular category of the Forum and you use the New Topic button in the Category Header section, the drop-down box will not be present, and your new post topic will automatically appear in the category that you are viewing.
Discussions about cameras, lenses, accessories, and image-processing.
  • Page:
  • 1

TOPIC:

lens advice please! 7 years 6 months ago #685

  • Renée Ferster Levy
  • Renée Ferster Levy's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • New Member
  • New Member
  • Posts: 1
  • Thank you received: 0
Hi All,
Having loved the convenience of a hybrid Lumix (zoom range and lightness) I need to finally upgrade as it has stopped zooming!
I'm about to purchase a Canon 80D and probably 24-105 f4L, and deliberating about which long lens to add for birding and other wildlife.
I had thought the Canon 100-400 mark II would be the one, but it is ridiculously heavy so I'm considering a fixed tele.
The newer 300 and 400s are out of my range; the older 300 f4 seems to be very good, and has IS unlike the old 400. Has anyone used it on an APS-C camera?
Advice welcome please.
Thanks

Please Log in to join the conversation.

lens advice please! 7 years 5 months ago #686

  • Glenn Pure
  • Glenn Pure's Avatar
  • Away
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 249
  • Thank you received: 199
Welcome Renee!

And sorry to hear your old Lumix failed – but I think you’ll get a lot of enjoyment and great photos out of the new gear you are contemplating. I was astonished what I could achieve when I first starting using a DSLR after having an old Lumix probably similar to yours. And the DSLR I started with was very basic: a Canon 450D with a kit 55-250mm zoom. But that’s history…

I don’t have the 300 f4 so can’t comment on that but I do have the 80D and an EF-S 18-135mm STM lens to go with it. I also have the old series (mark 1) EF 100-400 L lens for bird photography. Here are some of my observations and experiences in case it helps you decide what to buy.

First the 80D. I’m very happy with it but I don’t have much to compare it with – just my previous 700D which I’ve now disposed of. The 80D has the latest generation Canon sensor with very good noise performance (= workable images at high ISO up to 1600 or above). This also flows through to a more sensitive autofocus sensor which is usable at lower light levels. It also has a customisable AI servo autofocus option with similar controls for Tracking, Sensitivity etc that you'll find in the high-end full frame DSLRs (eg the 5D and 1D). This is what you’ll need if you want to do flight photography. The AI servo focus speed and accuracy is reasonable in my experience but probably not in the same league of performance as the big full frame cameras mentioned. If you search for my recent images on this site, you’ll see some examples of what the 80D can do for both flight and still photography.

If you were unsure about the 80D, the other option would be the 7D mark 2. It seems to be a fine camera and used by quite a few members. The image sensor in the 80D is marginally better but the 7D mark 2 may be better in other areas of performance. For example, it has more AF points. Being a pro-level camera it is also likely to be more robust. However, it is more expensive.

Regarding your wildlife lens choice, I’d personally find a 300mm too short much of the time. The 300 f4 also isn’t a top performer optically as reported by independent test site dxomark (dxomark.com: Ian Wilson has written an article for the last newsletter on how to interpret the measurements on this site). The new EF 100-400mm mark 2 actually performs significantly better in terms of sharpness and probably has a better image stabiliser in it as well. It does cost significantly more though! And as you’ve noted, weighs more but not a huge amount. It’s about 0.5 kg heavier than the 300 f4. If you think you could cope with the extra weight (and cost), I think the 100-400 would be a much better choice. Do you know what the full frame equivalent zoom range was on you old Lumix? That might help your decision.

Finally, your choice of a 24-105mm L lens for your new camera body … as mentioned, I have the EF-S 18-135mm and mostly use it at the wide angle end. At 18mm it is equivalent to about a 28mm on a full frame camera and that is workable for me. If it wasn’t that wide, I think I’d feel limited. I’ve also been very impressed with the optical performance of the 18-135 as well as the image stabiliser in it. The STM focus drive is also virtually silent – important if you ever contemplate doing video. One downside with the lens is that it is an EF-S series so will only fit on the cropped sensor cameras – it won’t go on a full frame unlike the 24-105mm you are contemplating. I’d don’t know if that’s an issue for you though.

Apologies if I’ve made this too long-winded but if you have further questions, need help using the dxomark website (not the easiest to use), etc etc please post again!

Cheers
Glenn

Please Log in to join the conversation.

lens advice please! 7 years 5 months ago #687

  • Tony Ashton
  • Tony Ashton's Avatar
  • Offline
  • New Member
  • New Member
  • Posts: 15
  • Thank you received: 6
Hi Renee,

Glenn makes some good points. But I must disagree re 300 weight and image quality compared to 100-400. The 300L is the best cheap (say $800 used) IS prime. And it's much lighter than even latest 100-400, let alone the old job. With crop sensor it's equivalent to 480mm. Short min. focus means it also doubles as macro compromise, moreso with extension tubes.

I also bought 24-105 way back in my 40D days. If I had decision to make again I'd stick to zoom rule of thumb (don't go beyond 3x zoom: 25-75 good, 24-105 not so good).

Cheers
Tony

Please Log in to join the conversation.

lens advice please! 7 years 5 months ago #688

  • Glenn Pure
  • Glenn Pure's Avatar
  • Away
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 249
  • Thank you received: 199
Tony hints at the key question of how long a lens need to be to do the job you want? As I mentioned in my initial reply, if you knew the full frame equivalent focal length of your Lumix at full zoom (combined with your experience of whether that was enough telephoto reach for the photography you like doing), then you'll get a better idea of whether the 300mm L lens will have enough 'reach' for you. As Tony say, that lens will be the full frame equivalent of about 480mm on the 80D (Canon says a factor of 1.6 for conversion to the 80D sensor). I can only speak from my personal experience that I use my 100-400 at 400 almost all of the time on my 80D. (But the ability to pull back the zoom on odd occasions is also very handy)

Regarding optical/image quality of the 300 L, I think Tony is using a Canon 5D mark 3, which is a full frame of about 22 megapixels. Data from DxoMark suggests the sharpness of that lens is reasonably well matched to the 5D mark 3 sensor. However, the 80D crams 24 megapixels into a sensor less than half the surface area of the 5D mark 3 sensor. A lens has to be that much better optically to give a sharp image on the 80D which has almost 3 pixels in the same area the 5D mark 3 has one pixel. In other words optical weaknesses will be more apparent on the 80D and the 300 L. The data suggests there will be some modest lack of sharpness when used on the 80D. It will also have an older generation image stabiliser probably similar vintage to my old original series 100-400. I believe the stablisers in the newer lenses like the 100-400 mark 2 are considerably better - and this will make a significant difference in how many good images you'll be able to capture.

I hope that provides further help. In the end, you will need to weigh up cost, telephoto 'reach', optical quality and weight.

Cheers
Glenn

Please Log in to join the conversation.

lens advice please! 7 years 5 months ago #689

  • Ian Wilson
  • Ian Wilson's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Platinum Member
  • Platinum Member
  • Posts: 430
  • Thank you received: 495
Hi Renée,
Glenn has given you some excellent advice based on a lot of first-hand experience with the Canon 80D. His exemplary work is a great showcase of its capabilities. For general purpose bird photography, you need a camera-lens combination that will resolve 0.1 mm at a distance of 10 m. This depends on the sensor pixel size and the focal length. The rule of thumb is that the minimum focal length (mm) required is 100 times the pixel size when the pixel size is in micrometres. The 80D has a pixels size of approximately 3.7 micrometres so the minimum focal length required for general bird photography is 100 × 3.7 = 370 mm. Using this rule of thumb you will immediately understand why a bare 300 mm lens is not long enough except for big birds close up. You are going to need a lens of about 400 mm focal length.

The options in the Canon range of lenses are as follows:
400 mm f/4 DO II $US6899 2.1 kg (too expensive and heavy)
100–400 f/4.5–5.6 II $US1999 1.59 kg (too heavy)
300 mm f/4 + 1.4× III $US1778 1.415 kg (may be too heavy)
400 mm f/5.6 $US1179 1.25 kg (no image stabilizer)
The 400 mm f/5.6 is an old design but still good for general purpose bird photography. Be aware that it does not have image stabilization but that does not stop people getting plenty of good images, especially birds in flight.
I hope this helps, Ian.

Please Log in to join the conversation.

  • Page:
  • 1

CONTACT US

The easiest way to contact us is by emailing us at This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

The Our People page, in the About Us section, contains email links to each of the committee members.