The recent topic on "Accurate colour management" reminded me that I've also been noticing regular issues with colour in images submitted to New Images, and probably been guilty myself on occasions. And while I seem to perceive a general upward trend in the standard of submitted images, there also seem to be regular issues in other aspects of image quality apart from colour. Of course, we do have a Critique Gallery in which all of these issues would be picked up, but the fact seems to be that the majority of submitted images still go straight into New Images without passing through the optional Critique Gallery. Furthermore, due to the understandable demands on moderators' time it is probably fairly rare for noticed image faults to be brought to the attention of the originating photographers, so they may remain blissfully unaware of their goofs (having said this I have on occasions received unsolicited helpful feedback from moderators on a submitted image).

Which brings me to a point about which I think BLP is overdue to have a fresh discussion and re-think. In short, a sure way for the various issues with images submitted to New Images to be picked up and hopefully then corrected by the image originator, is to set up and allow for Comments from members on any new image submitted to New Images. This has been bothering me for a while, and in my view is the most obvious point of difference between BLP and the various other high-quality bird photography forums on the internet, e.g. Feathers and Photos, and Birdphotographers.net. I don't think this would unnecessarily overlap with or duplicate the Critique Forum, as the latter seems to have evolved into a place for members to specifically request expert help on improving certain images before submitting them to New Images etc.

I would very much like to see a serious fresh look at this issue by the BLP Executive.

Cheers, David

In principle I agree with David's proposal, but I have one concern. Allowing anyone and everyone to comment on an image can become confrontational and / or contain content which is incorrect, objectionable, contrary to the organisations objectives,standards or policies. To guard against these unwanted side effects many forums have implemented the "no comment" policy or insist on all comments being moderated before being displayed. I may be surprised but I doubt that there would be sufficient volunteers to act as moderators.
As an alternative could the upload form be extended to include a field for "Comments and critiques welcomed" If a photographer desires comments on the image, contact with the photographer would be private between the photographer and member using the existing "Contact Photographer" button.

Thanks for the thoughts Bob, and I agree with the possible need to moderate Comments, adding that in my experience i've seen very little evidence of the potential for confrontation or objectionable comment amongst BLP membership. I also note that Comments seem to mostly work well on the two other forums I mentioned (which are probably the ones most familiar to BLP members). I'm probably not alone in having had some excellent personal interaction with other BLP members using the "Contact Photographer" button, but the serious disadvantage of this method is that no-one else but the two members involved have any way of reading this discussion, which removes a lot of the potential value to other members.

Cheers, David

I think allowing comments is worth discussion. I think what's most likely to happen though is that a lot of people with post 'Great shot' comments or similar. While that would not be terribly helpful in itself, it might actually work against others who might seek to post a comment that highlighted some problems. Social acceptance is important to most people and being seen as the odd one out could be a strong disincentive. It might interpreted by those who posted 'great shot' as a comment against their own opinion too. Could get divisive.

I was an active member of BirdPhotographers.Net for a number of years and learned a great deal from the feedback I received and from the experience gained critiquing the images of other members. Honest and informative public critiques are very helpful both for the photographers involved and the watching audience. I have long wished for something similar at BLP. Our options are much more risk averse and I think the value is diminished as a consequence. Even so, the risks of our processes are not reduced to zero as I can recall one case of a new member submitting an image to the Critique Gallery because she was encouraged to do so, as are all new members. However, the lengthy and well-considered critique she received was such a shock that she promptly resigned her membership. She had a social media presence with lots of likes for her pictures and no-one had ever hinted that there was room for improvement. The practice of providing private feedback using the Contact the Photographer button also has its dangers. In the early days, before we had a Critique Gallery, I used this option to give some hints and encouragement to new members and sometimes old hands. On one occasion this went badly wrong when the new member was outraged that she received unsolicited feedback on one of her images. She sent a caustic email to our Web Administrator who passed it on to the President. It took a long phone call from Graham to hose down the issue and I was so chastened by the experience I stopped giving unsolicited feedback to new members.

With hindsight I probably don’t use the Forum as much as I should to explain management decisions to members. The main reason for this is that I have so many tasks to perform as President that I am always busy, responding to emails, moderating writing new member critiques (although not in recent months due to my workload), addressing issues and all the other tasks that are too long to mention (including acting as Treasurer at present ). To be honest I don’t always have the inclination or time at the end of each day. However, I’m responding to this topic as it is important that our members understand the depth of discussions undertaken by the committee on subjects such as this one and that they feel their feedback is valued.

In an ideal World it would be rewarding if members could receive feedback on every photo submitted for moderation. This is not possible given the time it takes to moderate each image and quite often moderators have to email the photographer for more information or clarification on some aspect of their image. Images with ‘issues’ do not sneak through the process – they are either rejected with an explanation, which takes time, or the photographer is contacted to suggest how their photo can be better post-processed. I don’t contribute to the Critique Gallery and that is until recently I was writing many critiques for new member submissions, which are not seen by the general membership. Simon Pelling is carrying this load at present and I thank him sincerely. When I am moderating, I will often contact the photographer and ask if they would like feedback on a particular issue. If they say ‘YES” I generally arrange a zoom call and take them through key edits in real time – this is also time consuming. Sometimes the process can be resolved by email but not always. The membership will not be aware of the mentoring delivered by various means by our moderators.

Ian Wilson indicated one incident that occurred when he was trying to assist a new member. Ian’s extensive expertise and passion for good photography should be received with open arms by new members – this is not always the case. This hasn’t happened to me and that might be that if the photographer does not reply tomy offer of sssitance assistance I do not follow-up. Connecting with members can be a frustrating call or email and I understand how Ian feels. When members tell you that they don’t want to spend money on post-processing software nor colour calibration tools and they are too busy to spend time reading and learning about their camera or PP software, they have never accessed our website resources, I wonder why they joined BLP. BLP doesn’t just accumulate quality images of Australian birds, it also teaches photography and we have quite a depth of expertise that is FREELY available. One response I often hear from new members is that they joined BLP because their friends told them that their facebook or Flickr images are fantastic and the new member is puzzled why our moderators would have any negative comments on the photos they submit – surely we accept any bird image that is submitted!

At the April committee meeting we will again address the issue of comments for all galleries. Will I support comments on images other than in the Critique Gallery. Definitely not and for the reasons discussed in the previous posts. Such posts can generate more harm than good and as suggested by others, you can bet the majority of comments will be low-value ‘Wow’, ‘Great photo’, ‘Wonderful image’ or an emoji. On the flip side there can be quite divisive comments, sometimes deliberate, sometimes solely a function of how individuals interpret the written word. I’ve witnessed an award winning photographer on Feathers & Photos chastise a new member to that Forum for criticising his photo and essentially threatening him never to do so again. In recent years I have often acted as a judge at my local camera clubs and I have noticed that providing critiques at a meeting where the photographer can speak to you at the end of the night is always well received. I think this reflects the personalised face-to-face interactions. For BLP, just the additional time to moderate these additional comments for our all galleries, or even just New Images would be a nightmare. My input will only count as ‘one vote’ – lets see what the rest of the committee think.